Hayley Quinn:
The fact I would say to anybody who's having that dialogue with themselves, is it creepy? Am I gonna be creepy? How do I not overstep boundaries? The fact you're thinking in those terms, I think, inherently means you're not the creepy guy. You're so unlikely to be that guy. In fact, you're probably so far over in the other direction that you're not communicating intentions and women just aren't seeing you. And that is a big shame.
Connell Barrett:
Welcome back to the How to Get a Girlfriend podcast. I'm your host, dating coach Connell Barrett. I am here to help you learn to flirt, gain self confidence, and get a great girlfriend, all by being authentic. No sketchy, toxic pickup artist moves needed. And today, I have a really special guest who's gonna help you meet your future girlfriend. My guest today is Hayley Quinn. Hayley Quinn is the leading UK dating coach, and she's a real superstar in this world of dating coaches. Hayley Quinn coaches both men and women, and she has transformed countless lives with her approach to finding love.
Connell Barrett:
She's the founder of hayleyquinn.com. That's hayleyquinn.com. She's got master classes. She's got coaching. She's got virtual coaching. It's all there on her website, and she's also written a really great book called Do This Not That Dating, which has 75 plus tips for difficult dating situations, and that's something you should definitely check out. One last thing, her TED talk has gotten over 3,000,000 views. That's 3,000,000 more views than my non-existent TED talk.
Connell Barrett: So get ready for an action packed episode with lots of insight from a true shining light in this world. Oh, wow. We're almost out of time, Hayley Quinn, but thank you for being here.
Hayley Quinn:
No. It was awesome. Thank you for the long introduction. I feel like I enjoyed my, like, 30 seconds of flattery there. Now, I wanna crack on and get the good work done.
Connell Barrett:
Let's do a 2 part episode. The first one is your introduction. The second episode is just advice. Anyway, so I was reading your book yesterday. Actually, I was listening to it. I think I've forgotten how to read because all I do is listen to audio books and podcasts, but I was listening to your book, Do This, Do This, Not That Dating, and I was really struck by something. So I wanna read a quote from your book. You wrote, quote, "Rejection isn't a reflection of your worth, but a redirection towards someone who's a better match."
Connell Barrett:
And then a quote a few sentences later says, "Just because the front cover of the book isn't exactly what a person wants in terms of them meeting you, seeing you, that doesn't mean the content of the book is bad." Can you talk about how men can change the way they look at quote unquote rejection?
Hayley Quinn:
Well, yeah. It's men, but it's also everybody because I think rejection is a fundamental part of everyday life. It's pretty it can feel like an emotionally sucky part of everyday life, but it is life. And, actually, if we can accept rejection as something that we will all face, particularly those of us or those people out there who strive to do things differently. You know, if you strive to put yourself out there and be compelling and to meet women, particularly meeting women in real life, that is quite confrontational. But through that confrontation, I think there's so much scope for great personal development, great learning, great confidence building. And I just would say as well to acknowledge the guys who are out there fighting the good fight, doing that right now. That is a brave and courageous thing that you're doing.
Hayley Quinn:
And by facing up to rejection and trying to find new strategies of how to think about it, you place yourself in this remarkably better position to obtain success and get the things that you want out of life.
Connell Barrett:
So you started dating. You mentioned meeting people in real life.
Hayley Quinn:
Uh-huh. That's my favorite topic. I love it
Connell Barrett:
Me too.
Hayley Quinn:
I do minimal I and I still don't know if you know this, but to this day or for a really long time now, like over 15 years, I do real world dating boot camps. I still coach that. I'm on the front lines. So with men and women, we're taking them out there to meet people in the real world. There's no workshops. There's no notepads. We are doing it. And because of that, I obviously, I'm completely biased, but I see it not only as the best way to meet people, but also just a fantastic form of personal development.
Connell Barrett:
Let me play devil's advocate. K? Sure. I'm gonna play the part of the guy listening to this podcast. He's a little bit shy. He's a nice guy. He's a true gentleman. He does not wanna creep women out, and he's gonna say, come on, you guys. Everybody's on the apps.
Connell Barrett:
Women don't want somebody to come up and hit on them and be creepy. What do you say to that guy?
Hayley Quinn:
I say it's not where, it's how. How that's important. You could be creepy on an app and you could be creepy in real life, but you and I think the fact I would say to anybody who's having that dialogue with themselves, is it creepy? Am I gonna be creepy? How do I not overstep boundaries? The fact you're thinking in those terms, I think, inherently means you're not the creepy guy. You're so unlikely to be that guy. In fact, you're probably so far over in the other direction that you're not communicating intentions and women just aren't seeing you. And that is a big shame because I work with women too and women are often convinced there's no good guys out there. They've just run out. They missed the sale.
Hayley Quinn:
They're gone. And in fact, I see that there's tons of amazing guys every day, but there's that communication gap because they don't want to be the creepy guy. They don't wanna press on boundaries, that they're simply not communicating with women in a way that is recognizable to women for a whole bunch of bad social reasons as being romantic, and therefore, they're not being discovered. And there's less romance all around for everybody.
Connell Barrett:
Well, you know who doesn't worry about coming off as creepy? Actual creeps.
Hayley Quinn:
Right. Actual creeps don't give a damn.
Connell Barrett:
So I tell my clients, I say, by the way, the fact that you're nervous that you're in your head, that you don't want to quote creep women out, that's a sign that you're a healthy, normal person. It's a sign that you care and have empathy for people. So that's a good thing, but we can overlearn that lesson. We can take the whole bottle to be nice and don't creep women out instead of just a pill, don't you think?
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Connell Barrett:
Okay. So you're a woman, obviously, and I know you're married now, but you've been on the front lines both as a coach and once upon a time as a single woman. Actually, let's do this. Let's go into some of that frontline coaching that you still do in person, which I love that you're still out there. Do you have any fun any fun, wins, success stories, moments, clients who you saw crush it when you thought you weren't sure it was gonna happen, but something great happened.
Hayley Quinn:
Well, I think when I do real world coaching and you do a practical boot camp, you are never sure what's going to happen. That's part of the wonder of meeting people in real life, and that's personal development. That's why I always coach on the events. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with saying, hey. Come take my program, and then I'm not even there. You know what, I'm gonna outsource it to a bunch of people. I take great pride in my coaching, the work that me and my team do. And I love the transformation.
Hayley Quinn:
I think there's nothing like it. You can start with and it's just sometimes for guys, it's as simple as just giving them permission that they are allowed to do something and inhabit a certain part of their personality could be really, really transformational. So to think about one from one of the last sessions, I had a lovely guy. He was actually from the north of England. We have guys from all over the world. He was a Geordie. If you guys in the States know what that is. He was 49 years old and he really wanted to go out there and meet women in real life and actually find someone.
Hayley Quinn:
And he was terribly shy, walking down the street in SoHo, or SoHo in London, not too different from NYC SoHo.
Connell Barrett: Right.
Hayley Quinn:
And he saw a woman who was sitting by herself drinking a glass of wine and eating a plate of oysters. Now the dating coach in me saw this and I thought that is an unusual, not typical thing for someone to be doing. He was very able to think on his feet. He walked over to her and he said and I think he cracked again, these were his own words. He made a joke about how he preferred Chinese food. He ended up sitting down next to her. They ended he ended up trying an oyster. They were there for, like I had he was there for over an hour, swapped numbers, started going on dates with this woman.
Hayley Quinn:
So it's like it's a magical moment of serendipity Mhmm. And trusting yourself and also just choosing to notice things that I think people communicate who they are all the time. I think people actually communicate that in some ways that they'd like to be spoken to. And when you can tap into that and when you see reciprocation from the woman, it creates these kinds of magical meet cute moments. And yeah. You know, whether it turns into a relationship or not, I think it can feel incredibly confidence building, incredibly fun for both people. You know what? Even if you get the quote, an unquote nightmare scenario where it turns out she's got a boyfriend or something, you could still have an amazing moment. It could still be a great interaction.
Hayley Quinn:
So I think I cannot encourage men enough, particularly if they feel a little bit slammed on the dating apps, which I think for men are harder grift than they are for women Right. To be able to build themselves up to the point about going out there and meeting women in person.
Connell Barrett:
That's a great story. I love how he noticed that unusual thing that stood out, or maybe you noticed it and pointed it out to him. Mhmm. I tell my clients I don't like to tell men what to say or have them plan it, because you don't wanna. I don't like having a scripted opening line. I don't want it to sound too forced, but I I let them know, hey, if you notice something unusual, like a woman eating oysters by herself, that's something you can absolutely use as a way in in a very genuine organic, or as you said, serendipitous way, which I love. Mhmm.
Hayley Quinn:
And, also, I'd like to add to that. I totally agree. I think observations, when you find them are great, sometimes you don't get the observation. What you get is an intuitive feeling of I just wanna go and talk to this person. And if that's what comes off you, that's the truth. Lead with that. That's the authentic thing. So I think as well for guys learning how to meet women in real life, continually kind of lowering this threshold and getting away from this idea of, like, a pitch perfect performance and recognizing actually they are enough.
Hayley Quinn:
And, actually, if they just send out invitations, they create the opportunity. If the woman is in the reciprocal space that she also needs to be into to make this magic happen, then great things could happen.
Connell Barrett:
And what a great story that they would have if they became a couple. Yeah. What a great way every time they would meet somebody in the future, they're gonna hear, oh, how did you 2 meet? And a woman like that gets to say, oh, he just came up to me. I was eating oysters and having some wine, and next thing I knew, we were really clicking and connecting. Whereas if he's the 800th guy who swiped right on her on Tinder, she's not even gonna see his profile.
Hayley Quinn:
Yeah. And I think that's kind of obvious, happy relationships do come out of dating apps, and I don't wanna completely say them because I think it's good to be open minded to all options. However, I think that's an inherent problem kind of baked into the DNA of an app if you meet on an app. And for women, serendipity, romance, bold moves, like, so much of this is how women view romance. And an app is inherently unromantic. So I feel that it can take quite a lot for both people to show up to a dating app date in, like, the optimum frame of mind for something magical to happen. Whilst I think in real life, you overcome a lot of those initial hurdles.
Connell Barrett:
Yeah. Well, that's very well said. And you said something else that my girlfriend echoed to me when I first met her, how sometimes a woman will make herself a bit more approachable in ways great and small. Like, my girlfriend, Jess, said to me she came out with me on one of my in person programs when I first met her. That's how I knew she was the one. She starts ordering my clients around. Like, get over there. She wants to talk to you.
Connell Barrett:
And I'm like, oh my god. She's the one for me. But, anyway, she said that she when she would go out with her girlfriends in her single days, they were in a group, but she would literally separate herself from that herd and make it easier for a guy to come over because she knows that it can be intimidating to see a group of 5 or women together. So, yeah, women sometimes will actually try to make it easier for you.
Hayley Quinn:
Sometimes. And I would say Jess certainly seems to have her wits about her in terms of, how to meet a guy, which is probably why she's ended up as being your girlfriend. Look. Some women are smart, and they're tapped into this. But to put this to men as well, I think part of what makes this so difficult, and I know this working with women as well, is just how a man may not intuitively understand, how do I start a conversation? How do I break the ice and connect with this woman? Lots of women also do not intuitively understand how to send the right signals to men. So I work with women who would love to meet men. They actually would especially in real life, they desire to get off the apps and meet men, but they're like, I feel I don't know what signals to send. Am I a crummy ghost desperate? I don't want the world to know I'm single.
Hayley Quinn:
What if someone talks to me and I don't like them? There's, like, this whole pile of reasons which also inhibit women from interacting really freely. So, yes, I would say some socially savvy and confident women will understand. Look. If I just create space by myself, I'm not gonna come and say hello to you, but I'll give you a clear opportunity. I'll give you a clear shot to say hello to me. Many, many other women won't, but if approached in the in a in I'm not gonna say the right way because there isn't a right way, a good enough way that they will be receptive to making that connection.
Connell Barrett:
Right. Good enough is good enough. Just do it. Good.
Hayley Quinn:
Abs absolutely.
Connell Barrett:
Just do it. I remember early in my journey, I approached a woman at Whole Foods in the daytime. Maybe we can talk about daytime approaching, even more because I feel like so many men say, okay, I'm at a bar, I'm at a club, it's okay, I can find the liquid courage or the social permission. I think in the daytime, it gets harder for a lot of men. And I remember early on, I approached a woman at Whole Foods when I was first learning all these things in the late double zeros. And I got her number. Her name is Ashley. We're standing in the cereal aisle.
Connell Barrett:
It was fantastic, and she could tell how nervous I was, and I even said something like thank you for being so friendly and nice. And she said something to me, and I felt like she was talking to all men. She looked at me and said, it's okay. You can come up to us. We like it. Do you still think that was a long time ago? That was about 15 years ago. In 2025 now, in this dating app world, do you think women still feel that way generally?
Hayley Quinn:
I think I can't speak on behalf of all women. I would say enough women are interested in meeting men in real life. You're right. The daytime presents the negatives of that there's no context. So, you know, if you're at a bar or a singles event, there is context. You will probably find it for I would say for guys that are really just starting out on this, that could be a good way to build confidence. The benefit of meeting people in the daytime is they're sober. I think that's great.
Hayley Quinn:
We do all our coaching sober. We Nice. I think in the daytime, we do every I think it's one to 1. So for the guys that are more introverted, don't like crowds, don't love loud music volumes, there's some really good wins there. It was a little while ago now, but I also met my husband at the gym, which I think is another one of those environments where you perhaps think, I'm not allowed to, am I allowed to do that? Is that just really immediately in the creepy bracket? So I would say learning to meet women in Whole Foods, it's not the easiest yard for someone who's a complete beginner without coaching or a community or some kind of support to go alongside it. Is it possible? Yes. Can it be amazing? Absolutely. And I would think about how you can do that as part of, I guess, a really well balanced dating strategy.
Connell Barrett:
Mhmm.
Hayley Quinn:
And it also depends, I guess, on your personality and what you're at in your journey to do things. So I have to say, if you're beginning, don't wedge yourself to any particular idea about how you're gonna meet women. Just come back to this very simple idea of, look, I'm gonna take action. Yeah. I'm gonna present myself, and I'm gonna do that across the board.
Connell Barrett:
Fantastic. You mentioned how you and your husband met. And I was looking at your website, and there seems to be some controversy about who talked to whom first. What's your what's your we'll we'll get him on a separate episode. What's your story about how you met your now husband at the gym?
Hayley Quinn:
I'm gonna put myself in the savvy woman bucket there. And I, like, I noticed him noticing me. I wouldn't say he was, like, 100% my normal type. I was kind of in a good frame of mind around dating, and I was like, oh, I'll be open minded. I walked out of the gym slowly. We also had a bit of serendipity. We got locked. We were both late for gym class.
Hayley Quinn:
We were locked out of this kind of gym class at the same time. We were both there banging on the door at the same time, which gave us an opportunity to get started. What I really loved about there's a lot of things I loved about how he connected with me. One of them was when we'd finished that gym session, I came out and I said, oh, you know, I really feel like something fruity. And he said, there is a fruit shop down the road. Let's go. And, he chose to take charge. He chose me a few flat peaches, which I've never tried before.
Hayley Quinn:
And he just bought me a bag of peaches, which was such, like, a simple gesture. But I really, really, really liked it. And I think from that moment, he was super clear, always being really forthcoming. We lived in opposite directions. He would always say, look. I'll walk you back from the gym, and I'd be like, no. No. It's out of your way.
Hayley Quinn:
And he said, look. It's 10 minutes extra to be in your company. I'm happy to do it. And he was just I think compared to other guys, he just showed up for me in a way that was so solid, so clear, so kind, and self assured. It was just he was, he definitely became the one.
Connell Barrett:
Well, my interpretation from a coaching perspective, from your story anyway, is the less the takeaway for me would be he put himself in a place at the gym where he was just going about his life, working on himself, being fit, great, and the a situation arose where he was talking to a woman he clearly was interested in and attracted to, and then it wasn't about fancy, cool, amazing things he said that I know of. He just started chatting with you, and then he took that chance. He said, hey. Let's go, let's go get some fruit together. That's my takeaway. Any lessons that you glean for the listener from what your husband your now husband did right?
Hayley Quinn:
Yeah. I think, as I said, you know, taking the chance is the best in terms of, like, big levers and little levers, that is the big lever. Take action. There's, like, a lot of other little tiny ones. Like, ah, maybe you could say that a bit differently or just be aware of that in your messages. The big lever is taking action. If you do that Yeah. Especially in person, you are, like, light years ahead in terms of how you're positioning yourself as a guy.
Hayley Quinn:
I also really enjoyed that there was, that, I guess, from a guy's perspective as well, he just took a little step forwards, and I was okay to go along with that next step. Didn't mean we were always perfectly aligned in terms of, like, where and how we wanted our relationship to go, but I was open to it. And I think for men out there as well to just approach the world of dating knowing, yes, there's things that you can do to show up differently as a man, but women have a role to play in this too. You know? And she also has things she needs to bring to the table to make that magic happen and to make that magic work. So you can only do your bit.
Connell Barrett:
Right.
Hayley Quinn:
And then you have to open that door, and then she has to walk through it.
Connell Barrett:
Like the song says, it takes 2, baby. Mhmm. It takes 2. I love the idea of big levers and little levers. I love that.
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm.
Connell Barrett:
I think you're right. Taking a risk, taking a chance is a gigantic lever. Being authentic, being you're putting that vulnerable real self out there, that's a massive lever. I think one of the mistakes that men make, at least with what to approach, is the little lever of what do I say? What's the right line? I think a lot of men take that little what I think is a smaller lever and turn it into something that's a big lever, but I think what to say is a small lever. Most of the women I dated from approaching, they don't remember what I said to them. They just liked my general vibe.
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. I think that's, you know, that quote, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Yeah. So I think if you sweat it and I and I think a lot of that, think about how deity advice is given. It's like, oh, this is the perfect line. Is it it weighs heavily on perfection or this idea of performance or there's this magic stuff that women love to hear. And it in fact, if you allow as you just said, if you allow that to build up to the point it actually inhibits you from taking action because you're thinking about all the other stuff you have to do, instead, you have to be very, very, step by step, very, very simple in terms of how you teach it. That's gonna be way more effective.
Hayley Quinn:
I would say to worry about what to say or thinking about how to, I don't know, notice a woman is eating a plate of oysters. Do that when you're already comfortably regularly meeting women
Connell Barrett:
Right.
Hayley Quinn:
In person. Maybe reflect and think about how you could refine that. At the start, just act. And you know what? You may never need to refine. There are many men who have never done an ounce of dating coaching throughout our history as a species who have done this before you. So you also do not need to be you know, one needs to be Casanova. No one needs to be Serrano de Bergerac. You need to take a chance.
Hayley Quinn:
You need to present yourself to a woman, and that might be, in fact, in all likelihood, enough.
Connell Barrett:
Fantastic. You struggle with dating. Right? Sure. You have a good job and cool friends, but you just aren't sure how to flirt, the apps don't work for you, and sometimes women put you in the friend zone. It's frustrating. Hey. I struggle with dating too. As an introvert and a total nerd, I didn't just live in the friend zone.
Connell Barrett:
I owned real estate there, but I escaped using the dating philosophy of radical authenticity, which I've used to help thousands of men in 17 countries find love. It's what I wrote about in my best selling book, Dating Sucks, But You Don't, and radical authenticity is why Psychology Today called me the best dating coach in America. And now I wanna personally help you attract your dream girlfriend. So go to datingtransformation.com and book a free call with me. On our call, I'll tell you how my 1 on 1 coaching will help you find your dream girlfriend, and you'll be doing it by flirting with confidence and authenticity. No creepy pickup tricks needed. So go to datingtransformation.com, book a free call today, and let my personalized coaching help you get a great girlfriend. One or 2 more sort of practical dating questions then I wanna get a little bit deeper about something you said on your TED Talk.
Connell Barrett:
But before we get to that, I wanna ask you this. I can't ask a woman dating expert. I can't let you come on my podcast without asking you about the woman's perspective. And one of the most common questions I get from men and listeners of the pod is, how do you read women on a date? How do I read them? How can I tell if she likes me? How do I read and figure out the situation? Maybe let's pivot away from approaching for a second and go to say the first date
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm.
Connell Barrett:
Or that first one on one conversation. Any thoughts on do's and don'ts or what you tell your male clients about how to read women?
Hayley Quinn:
Okay. You know, I'm gonna say something that's maybe a bit controversial. I don't think you should even try. I think reading other people who you don't know very well is really difficult. I think you could look for very obvious indicators. Yeah. Is she happy to spend time with you? Does she say yes to the date? Does she spend a good amount of a decent amount of time with you on that date? Does she ask you questions about yourself? Like, there's some basic stuff in there in terms of her contribution, but I wouldn't frame it in terms of signs that she likes me because I think that can actually often be quite disempowering. Yeah.
Hayley Quinn:
Instead, I'd flip that around if I was a guy. I would go in there and think, what would I like to have from her? What would I like to see her contribute? What would make me more interested in her? What would make me more attracted to her if I got this contribution from her? Because a guy can know how you feel about something. Right? But, you know, mystically understanding someone you've only met for a couple of hours is extremely difficult. Also, the best way to get to that answer is through communication. I think as a guide, choose to state you know, trust your own sense of what you would like to have happen next in this situation. State it and communicate it to her. Get her response. That is harder because you may think, well, if I just got these 10 magical signs, I could be more sure about what she wants, and then I wouldn't have to face so much fear of rejection.
Hayley Quinn:
I'd feel like on safer territory. However, I think that can often be misleading. Instead, I think it's better to sort of rip that safety blanket off. And, as provided she is participating and investing, to trust your own decision about what you would like to have happen next and to commune and to state what you would like to happen with her and listen radically to her response.
Connell Barrett:
I love that. You 're radical. You even say in your website, I want to quote radically change your dating habits. That's a very radical change than what most men are trying to do.
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Connell Barrett:
In a good way, I think. It's great.
Connell Barrett:
You know, I'm gonna focus on what I can control. I'm gonna bring my best self to the date. I'm gonna try to get her to contribute. I think of dating as I love acting or improv. I take a lot of improv classes. I love the art of 1 on 1 playful true artistic connection in an improv setting, and I see dates the same way. I'm, like, I'm here to play with you. I'm here to bring a truthful, real, playful self, and if you'll play with me, we'll probably be in a good place.
Connell Barrett:
And if you aren't gonna play with me, then maybe we're not a good fit and that's okay too. But I'm not gonna try to read every single syllable you say.
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Exactly. And I think that's a good intention. Nice and easy as well to bring into a day. And I think simple is good as well. You know? Like, you again, simple means, like, less overthinking, less anxiety, more ability to be, you know, to express who you are.
Connell Barrett:
Yeah. Keep it as simple as you can. Dating's tough. Dating's hard. There's self doubt. There's the identity. There's being lonely, looking for love. Keep it as simple as you possibly can.
Connell Barrett:
Okay. I can't, I wanna play this clip from your TED talk. You have a great TED talk. It's only got 3,000,000 views. That's all. And there was about a 45 second excerpt that really made me stop and nod my head. I'm gonna play it, and then we'll talk about it. So here it is.
Hayley Quinn:
And that's really because I'm concerned that in our quest for love, sometimes it can be the ultimate distraction to fixing ourselves and doing the real work that will make us happy. Because don't get me wrong, I think that the desire for attachment, for intimacy, for security, for love, those goals are natural, they're human, and they're good. But I think sometimes the way we go about them is a bit weird, whether that's crazy, ridiculous, on off destructive relationships or needing to go out on a date every single night of the week with a different person. You know, like the hip form of dating, where you have someone on the back burner, someone on the front burner, someone under the grill, and then someone else over there in the freezer, just in case, god forbid, right, you spend a night by yourself?
Connell Barrett:
Amazing. That's so great. The part that really caught my attention other than the part of the end that made me laugh was you talked about how, let's do the real work here. Let's not just talk about tactics and the practical parts of dating, but let's also do the real work that makes us happy, makes us more fulfilled. Can you talk about how we do that work or how we begin to do the real work?
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. Well, I guess some people will identify with what I said at that section of the TED talk, which is that dating is a distraction. Other people and I think this will probably represent the majority of the guys that I would imagine listening to this podcast. Is dating a distraction? Is it that they're actually just trying to create some movement and subtraction in that area of their life. So maybe the idea of, wow. I've had all these crazy relationships, and my life is full of dates. That may be a perceived high quality problem that just, like, simply hasn't happened yet for them. So I think a good way to think about it is, obviously, we can we can, I think society quite neatly sets up that finding a romantic partner is just like and it is? It's an amazing achievement.
Hayley Quinn:
But is it a silver bullet for all your life's problems? No. Look at how the pickup artist industry works, though I have some positive things to say about that. But they often make romantic achievements. Like, what do they focus on? The number? Yeah. A date? Having sex with someone? And then there's a bit it's like the advice drops off the end of a cliff. As someone who's been married for quite a while, I can quite safely say that the work therefore continues. It is not that you meet someone and that's it. It's not like passing.
Hayley Quinn:
Go. Congrats. You've won in life. It is an achievement. It's a great thing, but it's a continued and evolving work in process. Commitment, particularly, is an evolving work in progress. It is as it says on the tin. So it's, before you get to that stage, I often think it's good with where you're at now.
Hayley Quinn:
I know it can feel difficult. And as a woman, I probably have not had to get anywhere near confronting the levels of, I think, loneliness Mhmm. That many single men have had to confront and to face. But there is a real value at this period in your life when you are by yourself. You never have such a profound opportunity for personal development, for self growth, for understanding who you are. So I get it's really, really tough. It's tough for men. It's tough for women.
Hayley Quinn:
It's tough for everybody, but there is a value in that time that isn't to be underestimated.
Connell Barrett:
Well said. I think loneliness is a deep internal wound that many men need to heal, many people, men men in the case of this podcast. For me, when I got into this world in the mid 2000 so I started working on my dating life right when I read The Game. I was, like, no way. You can learn how to get girls? What? What? So The Game came out in the mid double zeros. That's when I read that book and started taking action, and then I took my first dating boot camp as a student in 2009. And for me, the biggest internal work I had to do, I didn't know it at the time, but now I realize what it was, is I just felt insignificant to women. I just felt like, oh, I'm a nerdy skinny ginger who's barely dated until he was in his thirties.
Connell Barrett:
I guess women don't really much like me. And that was the internal work that I needed to do. And, I guess my question for you is, how does a man know what the internal work is that he needs to do?
Hayley Quinn:
By taking the risk and pulling the big lever. Mhmm. Because when you start taking risks, when you put yourself in a space of action, you know what you get? Feedback. Yeah. Feedback is tough because you're gonna find out things about yourself. You're gonna get you're gonna hear an echo of what some of those vulnerabilities are. You are for some people, not so much for others. There may be communication skills there or points of self awareness.
Hayley Quinn:
They're gonna come to the surface. But, again, that can be challenging. It's a lot easier, isn't it, to just sit at your home and watch Netflix and scroll the Internet and just think, oh, you know, it'll just happen or it won't happen. But, actually, by doing the work and putting yourself out there, you face up to a lot of this stuff. But that's that's as I said, I think feedback is the breakfast of champions. Mhmm. I think that's how you learn. That's how you grow.
Hayley Quinn:
And as I said, it's not just the feedback that isn't just there for men either. It's it's, it's a human thing. You know, women also have vulnerabilities. Women also have limiting beliefs. Women also have, you know, not so helpful narratives around dating that they also get feedback on in different ways.
Connell Barrett:
What do you think are 2 or 3 of the top limiting beliefs that men have about themselves? They might not know they're limiting. They might just be beliefs. But what are the top 2 or 3 beliefs that you look at in your male clients and think, oh, oh, we gotta fix that, sir?
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Well, I think as you said, the profound one is for everyone. I'm just not the kind of person that people find attractive. There's this one kind of person, and it's certainly not me that those people that people like. So I think that could be just just not identifying as, like, you know, the romantic hero, feeling like instead I'm like the, I'm like the funny person or I'm the nice person, but I'm not that guy. And, also, I guess, seeing again, this is a kind of a negative side of some of the pickup world and industry is I think it very much presents there is one there is a one way or maybe there's a couple of different ways that you can be successful and romantically attractive as a man. And I think if you don't neatly fit into either of those boxes, that could be very, very challenging. So I'd say like, just again, lack of self belief. I'm not that guy that's gonna be huge.
Hayley Quinn:
I think another big one is just feeling that they do not have permission to present themselves as a sexual masculine man. That they're not allowed again. And I like, again, we could probably do a whole podcast episode on reasons why men feel that they're not allowed to express themselves sexually and that I mean, it's a very logical conclusion for men to draw, relooking and taking feedback for the world around them. So, again, I think if a guy is in that space where he's struggling to find a healthy way to express sexual and romantic interest in a woman, you know, there's a thousand good reasons why he's arrived in that place. However, the big stick point there is it becomes a there can become a huge, communication breakdown where because he's not able to authentically communicate his interest, his feelings, his intentions towards a woman, It's like sending out, like, a patchy signal and expecting that signal to hit home with the woman. It just doesn't resonate.
Connell Barrett:
Right.
Hayley Quinn:
And then as I said, the woman, her patchy signal, her patchy bit is, like, probably being quite narrow in terms of how she expects romance to happen, what kind of how she imagines a man to interact with her. Women often literally do not get it, that for a man to approach a woman, particularly in real life, could be really hard. Like, women just don't get it. Here's a woman's limiting belief. If I was attractive enough, he would just come and sweep me off my feet. They don't consider that, hey. Perhaps this guy's feeling a bit scared or he doesn't know if he's got permission to do it. Right.
Hayley Quinn:
They just think that men are like, you know, that but men are like hardwired Casa Novas. And they think, again, then their own stuff, women's own feelings of lack of confidence around their looks, that's the storyline she'll take. She'll go, there's no good men out there or I'm not attractive enough. She won't go, there's loads of good guys out there, but they're struggling to communicate and relate to me right now for some what reasons that are on them and some reasons that are societal. What can I do to help? Most women don't think like that.
Connell Barrett:
Don't fast forward. This is not an ad. It's a free thing that's gonna help you flirt with confidence, because I'll bet that you struggle with what to say to women and how to flirt. Right? Well, let's fix that. I'm gonna give you what I call the flirty 30. These are 30 flirty questions to ask women on the apps or on dates or when you approach so that you can confidently connect with cool sexy women starting today. It's time to stop running out of things to say and start asking them flirty questions that are gonna make them want to date you. So to get your copy of the Flirty 30, it's totally free.
Connell Barrett:
Just go to Datingtransformation.com/flirty30 , And that's flirty30. Datingtransformation.com/flirty30 You're about to start confidently flirting with women, going on dates, and soon getting a great girlfriend. Go get your flirty 30. Yeah. That's a great mental lever to give a guy is to tell him, you know what? That woman you're afraid to approach, why don't you go over there and make her night better by letting her feel sexy and intriguing and attractive to you? Mhmm. She may or may not be your type, but why don't you go over there and give her what she wants? And that idea of helping a man focus on what he's offering the other person as opposed to what might happen if she rejects me, to me, I've seen some really nice shifts that men make when they make that mental mindset change.
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. Mhmm. So I think, yeah, that I would. I would phrase that if you're talking about creating an intention for your approaches. Yeah. And I think when you go in the kind of pick up my intention of how do I get something from that Do
Connell Barrett:
I get what I want?
Hayley Quinn:
Well, you're probably gonna feel a bit icky. And if you feel icky, you're probably not gonna be able to take the action. And that's a problem because without pulling that action lever, you're stuck. So what intention can you give yourself? And you're right. Like, altruism, how can I make her day better? How can I make her day a really, really solid one? It could be, how can I be curious about her?
Connell Barrett:
Yeah.
Hayley Quinn:
So even if she's not 100% your type and you might not be a 100% hers, curiosity is a really good one as well. Or how could I express myself? Self expression is lovely as well because you feel good. Everyone feels good when they get to express themselves. So you gotta find an intention or, again, a framework for meeting and interacting with women that helps to propel and support your self esteem. That's really, really important.
Connell Barrett:
That's why I think personalized help and coaching, if you are so inclined, is so important because different people have different combination locks to unlock that confidence. I've had clients. I had a client named Ted. I just said, just walk up to women and find out what makes them interesting to you, what makes them fascinating because he's such an inquisitive guy. That was his lever that said, oh, I love finding out what makes people interesting, but a different person that might not work with. For me, it was to express some genuine, playful, fun energy because that was what lit me up at the time. Mhmm. But, every guy is a little bit different. Okay.
Connell Barrett:
I wanna finish up with some talking about old school PUA stuff. The good, the bad, the ugly, because I have a lot of feelings about PUA guys. On one hand, these are the first guys I ever hired to help me back when I was nervous and nerdy and so in my head. So they did help me change my life. At the same time, there's plenty of cringe in this area too. Tell us a little bit about your past. You used to write, as I understand it, write, advice or or ghostwrite for pickup artists back in the day? Can you clarify what you used to do?
Hayley Quinn:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is going back a lot, like, along this is, like, 2008, 2009. Mhmm. The real long form of the story that I'll try to keep brief is that I had a boy when I was very young. I was maybe, like, 18 or 19, and I had a boyfriend that was into pickup. I wasn't super happy with how he treated me as a result of the pickup industry.
Hayley Quinn:
Let's say that. And I was, like, also quite a feminist at the time, and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna blow this industry wide open. Let me see what's in there. Come at me, in my much more confrontational space in my life than I was at the time. So deciding, to try and rebel, I reached out to some pickup artists on Twitter and through blogs. That era was really just beginning. Some of them got back to me probably because I was an 18 year old woman. And some of them offered me a job, ghostwriting on their blogs. Some of their blogs performed well. Then I started to write more and more content. Then I attended their seminars in New York and in London. And then they said, hey. Well, why don't you talk for, like, 5 minutes? You could be, like, the woman's opinion.
Connell Barrett:
Right.
Hayley Quinn:
And I didn't know what I was doing, but I tried. I threw myself out there. After that, around 2010, I found myself with nowhere to live, and I ended up moving into a pickup artist lair, with a few guys that I'd met through the scene. Okay. We actually sublet a room in that house to a student who subsidized our rent, and therefore we all existed. So it was digital nomadism. It was basically, I was the girl in the guy gang. It was a very, like, a very crazy period in my life, but I learned a lot.
Hayley Quinn:
And also my coaching, I was just like, well, you know, you got this guy, you got 6 hours with him in a nightclub or in a supermarket. Sorry. How do you say that? In a grocery store. Mhmm. And, good luck. So my coaching was probably not that great 15 years ago, but it was formed on the fly and through all these kinds of real life interactions. So as a note I'm not formally a nerdy, introverted, slightly socially anxious person myself, I can say that the world of pickup gave so much to my life. You know? It gave me so many friends.
Hayley Quinn:
It gave me my career, these amazing experiences that I've had. It developed me there's been so much good that's come and I and I also saw lots of coaches trying to do good. There's some bad stuff as well. Bad stuff? Terrible standards back in the day for coaching products and boot camps. So if you did a boot camp back in 2010, oof. You know? I don't know if people were really thinking about it in the same ways in terms of, like, who is ready for this coaching or who needs other mental health support. You know, there weren't really any standards. It was just like flying by the seat of your pants.
Hayley Quinn:
I think that wasn't helpful for a lot of people. I also think the initial terminology was very problematic. Yeah. It probably started out just kind of being fun in a kind of a fun-ish way to talk about women. But, again, if you're thinking about the guy who needs to pull that lever, if you're talking to his average, nice, and I mean that in a positive way, man
Connell Barrett:
Yeah.
Hayley Quinn:
Does he want to approach a target? No. He probably doesn't. So will that have to deal with it?
Connell Barrett:
Target back to his seduction location?
Hayley Quinn:
Should let yeah. Exactly. His bounce back. I don't know. Extraction. Like, I mean, it's like it's fun. It was funny not funny when I look back on it through the lens of the past. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things in our society that we've changed since the 20 the twins, the naughties and the 20 tens.
Hayley Quinn:
Right? We're in a different space now. The pickup artist industry is the same. I think there were some casualties there. There was some bad stuff there, but it also gave a lot to my life. So
Connell Barrett:
Here are a couple things that made me cringe or even made me cringe back then, but I thought, well, I guess this is what you do. One coach said, you want to tell a woman that you wanna take things to a, quote, new direction, but you pronounce it like a new direction. So it's, like, subliminal. Say a new direction, and that's gonna turn away.
Hayley Quinn:
Well, again, isn't that a nice idea? Isn't it a nice idea that you could say a 2 word kinda abracadabra phrase Yeah. And a woman will see it was a sexual object. Wow. Wouldn't it be great if there was such a shortcut? But it's, like, mind blowingly unrealistic. So I totally think that. I mean, yeah. I could see why. No.
Connell Barrett:
The other thing, actually, the guy who said I won't name him. The guy who said this was actually a pretty good guy. I don't I don't think he meant it with the the way it sounds, but one of the one of the coaches I went to a seminar, he said he talked about, oh, well, if you if you make it, if you escalate physically on a woman and she doesn't like it, use a quote statement of empathy. And I'm, like, okay, I get where that's coming from, but having a planned statement of empathy, that sounds like something Ted Bundy did to get women in his car. I mean, how about, like, having actual empathy? How about not doing things that are gonna make you have to apologize, probably? All that said, I totally agree with you. These men, mostly men, changed my life.
Hayley Quinn:
I'm also gonna share one more I had with this. Go. Approach 1,000 women to get battle hardened to your fear of rejection. Be rejected. You know, rather than actually trying to understand that process differently or think about rejection differently, just, you know, self-flagellate until, you know, it's meaningless to you. And yeah. Again, I think it's like I could kinda see the grain of the idea in there, but the application, I think, was very, very unhelpful.
Connell Barrett:
Are there any that might be a good way to end. I can tease this at the beginning. Are there any old school PUA moves that actually to this day you might still say, you know, that's that's pretty good. Here's mine. Yeah. Go on. I should still use this in my coaching. The push pull, you probably know what the push pull is.
Hayley Quinn:
Yes. I'm cool with that. Yeah. Absolutely. I've got one. I stand by today. It's the 3 second rule.
Connell Barrett:
Oh, yeah.
Hayley Quinn:
You're interested in it. 3, 2, 1, off you go. Count yourself down. Go for it. Because, again, it's putting you in a space of taking action and not overthinking. And for that, I would say the 3 second rule, I think, has stood the test of time. Mhmm.
Connell Barrett:
And I learned this from my old coach. I did a program in London circa 2010. Who knows? I might have met you one I
Hayley Quinn:
I was exactly.
Connell Barrett:
It's possible. But, this is not a pickup move so much as just a fun little banter, playing around with accents. I would walk up to women in London, and I would and I would see if they could do a good American accent, and then I would tease them if they couldn't do it. I would walk up and say, okay, repeat after me with an American accent. I would like to pay for this cheeseburger with my credit card. And then she would try to do a American accent, and then I would tease her, fuck with her for that. And it worked pretty well, actually, come to think of it. Not that I can do a good British accent, but that's my London story.
Connell Barrett:
Mhmm.
Hayley Quinn:
Well, I think maybe off off you know, not to throw names around, but off days, you will have to tell me more about your stories because I think I was very deep into the pickup industry. Mhmm. London 2010, with all the big you know, all the old great companies of that time. And as I said, I feel that there was some good, some bad. There was definitely some ugly. But for guys now, I would say, like, I know dating advice can feel like an area that you'd be like, do I have to do that? Is that the right thing for me to do? Again, it's like it is, I think, approaching in the right way. It can be an amazing form of personal development. It can be incredibly confident building, incredibly empowering, and also it's your life.
Hayley Quinn:
So putting yourself out there to take the risks builds towards getting the relationships with women you want. I mean, it's a great journey, and it's 100% worth it. So if you're here and you're curious about coaching, go for it.
Connell Barrett:
We're gonna I'm gonna tee you up to talk about your coaching. I have one last little anecdote from London, and this is where my heart is with every man who ever coached me, even the ones who did were unintentionally gross. I was with my event coach in London, and I wasn't . I was sort of auditing his program. I wasn't actually taking it, and he and I were chatting and and we looked over and he goes, oh, look over there. It's my old client, Phil Philip or something maybe, and I look over and I see this tall beautiful woman wearing an overcoat glasses. She's got that she's being gamed by this guy. Right? She's got sunglasses on. She's glamorous.
Connell Barrett:
She's attractive, and she's giving him that look of, alright. I liked what I'm hearing, and then the man who was talking to her was a young man of color in a wheelchair, and this was a young man in a wheelchair. I didn't even meet him, but the image of this young man in a wheelchair with the the the the the, resourcefulness and the courage to to go up to a woman and shoot his shot when he has every reason to feel like he's limited. And why bother? He's in a wheelchair. She's a tall, beautiful woman, and it was going well. That was, like, so inspiring to me. And if that's what a PUA was able to do for that young man, hey, more power to him.
Hayley Quinn:
Mhmm. I love that story. I think I love that story. I wanna say I think I know exactly who you mean. He was quite famous Okay. In London at that period in time. And for the guys out there who said meeting women in real life, it's the great equalizer. Yeah.
Hayley Quinn:
Dating apps can feel a little unequal, but dating in real life
Connell Barrett:
yeah. No. I'm sorry. Finish your thought. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Hayley Quinn:
Yeah. I just said, you know, on dating apps, I can feel like some odds are skewed against guys
Hayley Quinn:
in terms of how those apps are set up and populated, but in real life, it's as if it's a great, great, great equalizer if you can pull that lever and present yourself.
Connell Barrett:
Yeah. And I think now in 2025, I'm not just saying this. As a marketer, I really believe this. I think this is the best time for single men to be out meeting women in real life because women are just so sick of the apps and online dating, and they're just like, why can't guys just come up to me like a man and make it organic? So to that point, if you would, share a little bit about your programs, what it's like to work with you and how you help men in person or or not in person or maybe virtually. Share a little bit about how that would work and also, of course, where guys can find you.
Hayley Quinn:
Okay. Absolutely. So you can find me at hayleyquinn.com. Thanks for pointing this out. It's got two y's, English spelling. So I have 2 main programs. I've got a virtual masterclass, which you can join from anywhere in the world. It is a live program.
Hayley Quinn:
Like, I am actively there live on Zoom calls, coaching you. Nothing I do is a random mass market, I don't know, QA. Everything I do is highly personal. Mhmm. I've been coaching for over 15 years. I have a, I think, a very, very sharp and well tuned step by step process to get you from a stage of perhaps just being a bit discouraged on dating apps to actually meeting the women you want. It's maybe somewhat online, but meeting them in real life, dating, and presenting yourself as the amazing man that you are. It's a 6 week long progress program.
Hayley Quinn:
It's super comprehensive. We have a fantastic online learning area. We do WhatsApp discussion groups. You get on the spot advice. It's highly personal. For most and it runs across 4 time zones. So for most guys, especially guys in the states, that's gonna be a great shout for you. However, if you really wanna step it up, and I always say this, if you wanna become if you're really focused on meeting women in real life, that really excites you.
Hayley Quinn:
That's where you see the future of your dating life. You're ready for that personal development. In addition to doing the 6 week online virtual masterclass program, you can bolt on a 4 day in person boot camp with me, mostly in London, but sometimes in New York as well. And I said there's nothing like it. Yeah. For actually getting out there and developing the tool for putting your notepad down, getting out there in real real life, and actually going through my tried and tested training exercises. And that's RIT Academy. To find out anything, you could just hit the let's chat button on my website, fill in the form, and I will personally get back to you.
Connell Barrett:
Well, if you couldn't already tell from this episode, she knows her stuff. And you're probably too much of a gentle lady to say this, but I'll say it. I was checking out your reviews. You have a fistful of rave reviews, 4.8 out of 5 average for client reviews. If it was 5, that would be tough to believe. 4.8 is basically just life changing-ly amazing. So you're great at what you do. Hayley Quinn, thank you so much for being here.
Connell Barrett:
You were a treat today.
Hayley Quinn:
Oh, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
Connell Barrett:
And thank you for listening. And by the way, don't forget your dream girlfriend. She's out there. Maybe she's in London. Maybe she's waiting for you in Hayley Quinn's program. But your dream girlfriend is out there, and she's already into you. She's gonna love you, but she's gonna have to meet the real authentic you. So go out there, take authentic, courageous action.
Connell Barrett:
Carpe datum. Seize the date. Till next time.